Westside Methods?

[holder04]

I have been trying to rap my head around the different mtehods westside uses.  I understand the difference between ME and DE.  What I am confused about is the Conjucated method, am I supposed to switch floor press, regular bench, close grip, etc. every week?

I have been following the 5/3/1 program, I am 6 weeks in with it.  I really like this. It is simple and I feel stronger.  I can see improvements in all 3 of my lifts. 

I am competing in feb. and will begin ME the week after next to prepare for the comp.

I have read westside articles over and over, but it just doesn't compute with me.  I need some guidance.

All advice is greatly appreciated.

[JK]

The best thing to do is go to www.westside-barbell.com and read all of Lou's articles.  Remember, he tends to write the way he talks, so don't get caught up in the specific words, but try to understand the conceps.    You get hung up on specific words, especially the examples that he gives and you will get confused.  Once you've done that, go to www.Elitefts.com and read Dave Tates and Jim Wendlers articles. 

A couple just to give you something to think about:

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/periodization_bible__part_1.htm

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/periodization_bible__part_2.htm

http://elitefts.com/documents/seminar.pdf


Books to consider getting: 
Westside Barbells Book of Methods

Elitefts Beginners Training Manual.

Elitefts Basic Training Manual

 



That should get you started on thinking about it. 

[JK]

I have been trying to rap my head around the different mtehods westside uses.  I understand the difference between ME and DE.  What I am confused about is the Conjucated method, am I supposed to switch floor press, regular bench, close grip, etc. every week?

I have been following the 5/3/1 program, I am 6 weeks in with it.  I really like this. It is simple and I feel stronger.  I can see improvements in all 3 of my lifts. 

I am competing in feb. and will begin ME the week after next to prepare for the comp.

I have read westside articles over and over, but it just doesn't compute with me.  I need some guidance.

All advice is greatly appreciated.

Also, don't buy into the bullshit about Westside being only for geared lifters.  If you are strong, you are strong.   Its that simple.   Using gear and understanding how it works will enable you to lift more weight, but you will still have to be strong. 

5,3,1 is an EXCELLENT method for gaining RAW strength.  Unfortunately it does have its shortcomings if you plan on using equipment.   Westside can be adapted to an individual lifter depending on that lifters goals. 

Again, don't get caught up in the specifics, think big picture.  It'll make sense then. 

[KingClem]

If you are trying to understand the Westside methods i would stay away from literature out of the westside. It sounds stupid but when i started out I couldn't understand a damn thing that loui was talking about in his articles and the book of methods is even worse. I would check the elitefts.com article database if there is anything you want to know.

As for conjugate training. It is basically using different special exercises (like floor presses and board presses for benching) to push up an exercise. There are lots of ways to periodise it. You can do a different special exercise each week or do two weeks on. The only real big factor is not to do the same exercise for more than three weeks straight if you are going to push that exercise to 90% of failure or more.

[holder04]

Let me see if I am understanding this:

Monday: ME Squat & DL
             GOOD MORNINGS.  That is the one exercise for the day? Then supplementary movements?
  So, I don't SQUAT? Just Good Mornings, and every week do a different Movement (i.e. Low box Squats, different Good Mornings, or   DL themselves.)  This is my ME training for squats?


Wednesday: ME Bench
                  Floor Press. That is the one exercise for the day? Then supplementary movements?
  Once again, I don't regular bench? Just Floor Press, or Board Press, or Close Grip. This is my ME training for Bench Press?

Friday: DE Squat
          Box Squat. So I can ME box squat & DE box squat?

Sunday: DE Bench
            Regular Bench Press.

Once again thanks for the help and advice.

[JK]

This is how I'd set up a basic template, remember there is some variation to this, this is just how I'd do it without knowing you and without being able to train with you.    Others may have a slightly different opinion and there are Westside lifters on this forum who are far more qualified than I am to answer this question.  Hopefully they'll see what I'm posting and chime in correcting the things I may have wrong.:

Max effort bench press
-Max effort exercise (something that is going to work your competition bench, ie board work, shirt work, floor presses, etc)
-Triceps: lower intensity, higher volume
-Shoulders
-Lats/upper back (including rear delts)

Dynamic squat/deadlift
-Dynamic squat (with accommodating resistance or straight weight, work 8-12 sets of 2 with a "wave" in your weights, ie increase weight each week for period, then deload)
-dynamic deadlift or supplemental deadlift exercise (ie zerchers, shrugs, etc)
-Hamstrings (higher intensity, lower volume)
-Low back
-Abdominals

Dynamic effort bench
-Dynamic bench press: ~8 sets of 3 with variable grips, work on speed, speed, speed while maintaining good form
-Triceps (low volume, high intensity):  ie a second barbell movement like JM presses or high board work
-Shoulders
-Lats/upper back (including rear delts)

Max effort squat/deadlift
-Max effort exercise (squat variation, deadlift variation, good morning---exercises that will supplement your competition squat and deadlift)
-possibly 2nd barbell exercise for quads/legs if you work good mornings or deadlifts: for example zerchers or belt squats
-Hamstrings (moderate volume, low to moderate intensity)
-Low back
-Abdominals



Don't forget these points:
• two days per week are devoted to the bench press
• two days per week are devoted to the squat/deadlift

• two days per week are devoted to dynamic training:  remember, Force= mass x acceleration, so the faster you move the weight with good form, the more force you will generate, the more force you generate, the more weight you lift.  These dynamic days are also days to work on your form.  Every rep should be as close to perfect as you can make them.   

• two days devoted to max effort training:  STRAIN....    its not all about setting PR's although I think there is a distinct mental aspect to training where you set a PR you develop the subconscious mindset that you are strong.  Mindgames will cause missed lifts.  We all play them.  Overcome them on your ME days and teach your body to push past its limits.

*try to have about 72 hours between your ME and DE workouts for specific body parts.  In my mind, this allows time for recovery and allows you to be prepared for maximum force generation.  In other words, don't schedule your training so you do back to back ME days.  If you end up doing that, at some point one or both days will suffer. 

•four days devoted to repetition training with your accessory exercises.   Accessory work does one thing:  it makes your squat, your bench, and your deadlift stronger.  If you are doing an exercise that doesn't directly contribute to the squat, the bench, or the deadlift then you are wasting your time.   

When you choose exercises to do, take a minute to write down your weaknesses and choose exercises that directly contribute to correcting those weaknesses, don't just do random exercises because you haven't done one in a while.   Do something that will make you stronger. 


Thats about as simple as I can make it.   The beauty of this type of training is its flexibility and the fact that you work both speed strength and brute strength at the same time.   You also can change frequently, so you won't stagnate. 



I hope this makes sense. 

[T.Johnson]

If the 5/3/1 program is working then use it until it doesn't work.  A little warning about the "westside method" isn't that it's not a great way to get strong but that it's a great way to overtrain unless you've got enough time under the bar and knowledge of yourself to be aware of what's happening with your body.  You may not be able to work all 3 lifts twice a week, unless you're lifting equipped "let's be honest and admit that a geared lifter doesn't have to work as hard with weights below 100% of their raw max assuming they've got the equipment on during those sets".  Don't get caught up with 1 method or another because they all have their places at one time or another.  I would keep doing what you're doing until you learn as much as you can about westsides methods and only then would I change.  

[JK]

If the 5/3/1 program is working then use it until it doesn't work.  A little warning about the "westside method" isn't that it's not a great way to get strong but that it's a great way to overtrain unless you've got enough time under the bar and knowledge of yourself to be aware of what's happening with your body.  You may not be able to work all 3 lifts twice a week, unless you're lifting equipped "let's be honest and admit that a geared lifter doesn't have to work as hard with weights below 100% of their raw max assuming they've got the equipment on during those sets".  Don't get caught up with 1 method or another because they all have their places at one time or another.  I would keep doing what you're doing until you learn as much as you can about westsides methods and only then would I change.  

I don't think I agree with your statement about geared vs RAW lifting, but thats a whole different discussion.

I do agree with your assessment of 5/3/1 as a training program and overtraining with Westside.   The problem I've seen is people are looking for a ROUTINE, not a TRAINING METHOD when they start doing a "Westside" program.   If you go at a Westside approach with thinking you should do x sets per x weeks then miss a key point---the deload, you run a high risk of beating the living shit out of yourself, especially if you get caught up in some of hte "toys' like bands.  I've been there, I've done it.   If you go at it with the idea that this is a method with the basic principals of training, you will get stronger.    Unfortunately some people are not capable of doing that, so they never get anything out of it except sore and confused.  The have to have an X reps per X sets training every single workout.   So then they start making excuses.  Alot of times being able to accurately assess weaknesses, modify a program and assess outcomes is something a beginner isn't able to do.   This comes with time, so a more experienced lifter may get more from a Westside approach because they've got these principal thoughts down for their body.  .  

I think you also need to have a solid strength base, but that also depends on the individual.  Amy got beat up on a basic westside template over time.  She also works crazy hours doing surgeries in the middle of the night, not sleeping during the day because she's teaching her classes, wasn't eating much other than protein shakes and chocolate some days, and had alot of outside stress going on with life in general.  For her the structure of 5/3/1 has made a night and day differenc and we've consistantly seen strenght gains every training cycle.  My most recent training partner put almost 100 lbs on his squat , 75 lbs on his bench , and 100 lbs on his deadlift following the EFS basic training template.   This was all done RAW with only a belt from August to December of this year.  He was in college, but was eating well and was getting plenty of rest despite the stress of working and school.  

I think 5/3/1 is an excellent program.  If you are struggleing with understanding Lou's writings and need more structure or you want to improve your RAW strength base with a crazy life schedule, it's one to look into.

Any of the Westside guys can feel free to jump into this at any time.... please?    

[holder04]

Like I said earlier I enjoy doing the 5/3/1/.  I have been lifting for many years. I know my body and understand what it needs. I'm an educated strength enthusiast and have spent time learning all types of training. I am new to "Power Lifting."

I have been told by Coach's I trust (experienced D1 Strength Coaches) I need to do some ME training 5-6 weeks before my competition. Monday is 6 weeks out with a deload week before the comp. So, this is why I am interested in Westside. Is this going to be whats best for me or will 5/3/1 get me ready leading in to the comp?

[JK]

Like I said earlier I enjoy doing the 5/3/1/.  I have been lifting for many years. I know my body and understand what it needs. I'm an educated strength enthusiast and have spent time learning all types of training. I am new to "Power Lifting."

I have been told by Coach's I trust (experienced D1 Strength Coaches) I need to do some ME training 5-6 weeks before my competition. Monday is 6 weeks out with a deload week before the comp. So, this is why I am interested in Westside. Is this going to be whats best for me or will 5/3/1 get me ready leading in to the comp?

I don't know about that.   With 5/3/1, your ME work should be every last set---when you are pushing for the reps with that weight.   The thing that is missing with 5/3/1 is DE work.  remember F=MA.   so there is that "risk" of loosing acceleration if you aren't training for it.   

This is something we are actually trying to figure out with Amy as we are working through which meets she's going to do this spring if and when we figure out what RAW meet she's doing.   My thought was to actually add in DE type work, not ME work.   Its very different is she ends up doing her next meet in single ply gear.  She needs to have at least 10 weeks adn probably longer to work with the bench shirt.  Figuring that out is the big headache. 

[glennb242]

As with any program, you have to fit it to meet your needs.

The different ideas involved in their system works very well and if you use all the diffenrent methods you can increase you lifts. If you don't understand it then you need to take time and learn before applying.

I use a version of it and I have seen great increases in my strength, but I have fit it to my needs.
I enjoy the box squats and rotate between ME and speed, but I rotate my ME exercises all the time to keep increasing(reps, bars, exercises, etc.) I only squat once per week but use 2-3 week waves as needed. I use many of the WS bench techniques but I nee more time in a shirt to know my groove.

You need to do ME, speed, reps(hypertrophy) but with a focus on your weaknesses, this is the only true way to get stronger. here is an example of my squat wave. Week 1- speed with bands, Week 2-reps for hypertrophy, Week 3-ME work, then rotate through again with different bars or band tension or both.

Good luck!

[Kurt Mattison]

Like any training method find something or go with what works for you.  I've been using Westside for 3 1/2 years now and my lifts continue to climb which at my age (46) isn't supposed to happen.  I have made minor changes to some of the things Westside teaches but its basically still the same concept I learned at Diablo summer of '06.  Look at my log on here and it should give you a pretty good idea of what I and my training partners are doing.  I've also used a few variations of my program for high school and college athletes with equal or better results than I've recieved.  A few of the subtle changes I've used for my own training is to go RAW on DE days (westside suggests wearing briefs or a suit with straps down) then using briefs on ME days.  Something else I'm going to use after my next meet (Feb 6) is to get off the box some on ME days and do deloads with briefs instead.  BIG IRON is doing this and seem to be getting great results, they want to use a band with briefs that lets them then take the band off, suit up and hit pretty close to the same weight.  One last thing I like about the Westside methods is it gets you out of the "body builder" type workout and into a REAL powerlifter training method.  Too many powerlifters do exercises or too many exercises, too many reps, sets, etc., in their training, with westside its usually about 4 exercises per session leaving the uneccessary bs or the posers to deal with.  The most important thing is to find what works for you..........

[Powerdawg]

If the 5/3/1 program is working then use it until it doesn't work.  A little warning about the "westside method" isn't that it's not a great way to get strong but that it's a great way to overtrain unless you've got enough time under the bar and knowledge of yourself to be aware of what's happening with your body.  You may not be able to work all 3 lifts twice a week, unless you're lifting equipped "let's be honest and admit that a geared lifter doesn't have to work as hard with weights below 100% of their raw max assuming they've got the equipment on during those sets".  Don't get caught up with 1 method or another because they all have their places at one time or another.  I would keep doing what you're doing until you learn as much as you can about westsides methods and only then would I change.  

Like JK said above, I don't agree with that statement.  Geared training involves a lot of overload and strain on the CNS.  Overload your CNS will lead to overtraining very very quickly.  Now is Westside best for a raw lifter?  In my mind not the best system for raw gains.  But singles are not best for raw strength gain unless you have a lot of time under the bar.

[Kurt Mattison]

If the 5/3/1 program is working then use it until it doesn't work.  A little warning about the "westside method" isn't that it's not a great way to get strong but that it's a great way to overtrain unless you've got enough time under the bar and knowledge of yourself to be aware of what's happening with your body.  You may not be able to work all 3 lifts twice a week, unless you're lifting equipped "let's be honest and admit that a geared lifter doesn't have to work as hard with weights below 100% of their raw max assuming they've got the equipment on during those sets".  Don't get caught up with 1 method or another because they all have their places at one time or another.  I would keep doing what you're doing until you learn as much as you can about westsides methods and only then would I change.  

I disagree, I'm using Westside training methods not only for myself but for the lifters I'm training and the high school and college athletes that come to me over the summers to get what their strength coach doesn't give them.  Its not all about lifting "max effort" the dynamic days are where the gains are made.  For example we will do Max effort BP with boards or deloads for two weeks, along with dynamic effort with speed bench or 50% of 1RM on the bar plus 25% in band or chain weight (at the top), throw in a tricep exercise per day, and two upper back exercises, plus core work.  For lower body if we are max effort on squat that week, we do dynamic on deadlift and visa versa, core work, sled drags, etc for conditioning.
The sports specific "kids" I train are getting better results from westside training than any of the programs their high school or college is using and my client list is growing faster than I can train them.  As far as the powerlifters I train they are ALL raw, I'm the only "gear" guy i the gym, even the "normal" lifters in our gym are switching over to some variation of Westside.  Like all programs, you have to find what works for you, but we use a basic Westside template and tweak it for the individual needs and goals of the particular lifter.  The local high school here is using MY program but they only train 3 days a week which puts them using the same workout every ten days instead of every 7.  Also I’m what I consider an “older” lifter, I’m 46 which usually, depending on diet, would usually require more rest between training sessions, westside works just fine for me.